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Plusnet Usergroup » All Users - The Open Forum » Announcements » Plans for 2007 : Next-Generation Network Trial
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Author Topic: Plans for 2007 : Next-Generation Network Trial  (Read 31601 times)
kitz

Posts: 4323

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2007, 08:39:46 pm »

TBH I dont think you will notice any real difference if you are on PAYG.
Theres another thread hanging around somewhere when the PUG members that trialled it gave a few comments.

Plus side
Slightly better pings by 1-2 ms, since you go straight out on to the internet without having to go onto PNs network (as you would with any ISP that had central pipes).

Downside

- No static IP +  BT allocated IP address.
- More hops show on your traces (but doesnt increase overall latency - you would normally traverse these hops anyhow - its just that L2TP Centrals tunnel the BT side of the network so you dont see it).

Speeds

I havent noticed any real difference with http and ftp etc. For comparison some tests I did last week.

FTP on the RIN platform



FTP on the PlusNet platform.




Have noticed a difference with p2p/usenet though - but then again Im on "Premier" which has more shaping on these protocols than PAYG would.  There may be an odd occasion when *something* was weird with Usenet, but Im not sure if that was my exchange or not and I havent been around enough to do any in depth testing on protocols.

The only real downside Ive seen first hand is I was *locked out* of some services for a while cause I got allocated an IP address in a BT range that someone forgot to tell PNs networks guys about.  That sort of thing should all be sorted now - hence we get to be the guinea pigs first.

Dont forget the Geeks!
™ kitz 2005
Laser

Posts: 44

« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 09:22:05 pm »

Thanks Kitz.

So it looks like it's some "technical" (to most ppl) transport-level change, as opposed to any spectacular improvement in speed or addition of facilities.

No doubt I'll be curious enough to try it out, but I'm still puzzled by the PN invitation to "trial" it. Since the user is unlikely to see any difference, how can the tester judge whether the trial is successful? When PN decide to roll this out on a non-trial basis, what is it going to be used for?
PaulCW

Posts: 1

« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2007, 10:22:43 pm »

So as I'm on Premier with a Static IP why did I get an invitation to try out something that won't work? huh
scarymonkey

Posts: 1085

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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 10:28:51 pm »

PAYG are on static IP as well. It is only an issue if you need to use the static IP and cannot use a dynamic one instead.

As for getting the email when on Premier I have no idea, but I guess PN systems think you are a PAYG customer so you might be getting faster speeds than you should...ssssshhhhh

Vince Marsters
ianwild

Posts: 3979


Not to be confused with Mike, Wildmind.

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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 10:29:57 pm »

The part from the plans document that is relevent here is:

"Late in 2007 and into 2008 will see broadband standardising on ADSL2+, and therefore average usage continuing to increase. BT’s 21st century network services and Broadband Connect products will come to fruition and we intend to transition across to these from the end of the year. The scale and growth benefits of the BT Retail Internet Network (RIN) will put us in a position to offer our customers the best transition to the 21st Century network."

Performance wise, I think the reason for the trial is to see if there are any performance advantages or not. Right now, I'm not sure, but certainly as we go into the world as described here, this new platform will prove the enabler, as the design is significantly more efficient, and it is scaled for true broadband application, unlike the current IPStream products which are designed around people who mainly browsed and collected email.

I'm sure things will get a lot clearer in the next few months, but suffice it to say that this is a good step for us and we are grateful for the people who participate in the trial and provide us with their feedback.

Ian

Regards,

Ian Wild
PlusNet Support
Laser

Posts: 44

« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 10:31:27 pm »

I've just suffered again from my #1 pet hate of MaxDSL - the stupid "BT profile" has decided I'm only allowed 2Mbps because of a momentary sync glitch despite it having been happy for weeks at 5Mbps... Another 3 day wait for it to wake it's ideas up! angry

Will this new trial system suffer from the same issues? Or is that not related to the part that is changing?
scarymonkey

Posts: 1085

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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2007, 10:33:26 pm »

I've just suffered again from my #1 pet hate of MaxDSL - the stupid "BT profile" has decided I'm only allowed 2Mbps because of a momentary sync glitch despite it having been happy for weeks at 5Mbps... Another 3 day wait for it to wake it's ideas up! angry

Will this new trial system suffer from the same issues? Or is that not related to the part that is changing?


Unfortunately yes it does. Took me 5 days to get mine to increase. I really wish BT would get rid of BRAS profiles, or at least make the changes up as fast as changes down.

Vince Marsters
kitz

Posts: 4323

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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2007, 10:35:28 pm »

I suppose there is the benefit that contention always works better the more users that are on it.  ie true 50:1 contention would be awful.. but when you have hundreds of thousands at 50:1 then it works much better.  

I think the pipe layouts are different too - youre not limited like with centrals which are split down into smaller chunks were a couple of heavy users on the same LTS as you can soon affect your own speed.  A lot of the transit is via the collosus backbone which are BIG fat pipes, before going straight out to peers on on to the internet.

This is one thing IMHO that is adventageous to ISPs and their customers... and from what I can gather the more users that do go on it - it shouldnt make as much difference as what it would a pile of users going on a 155Mb segment.
The Existing Centrals could become funnel sticking points now that more users have higher speeds since it doesnt take many users on 8Mb to max out an ISPs LTS.

Dont quote me on that though - Im only trying to give you my honest opinion on how I see things.  My knowledge of the Central pipes is better than what I know about the Central Plus (RIN) product.

Dont forget the Geeks!
™ kitz 2005
scarymonkey

Posts: 1085

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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2007, 10:37:46 pm »

Another advantage is lead time to get more capacity. If I understand correctly it is about 5 days instead of the 10 weeks+ that standard Centrals take.

Vince Marsters
ianwild

Posts: 3979


Not to be confused with Mike, Wildmind.

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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2007, 10:40:29 pm »

No, nothing on the physical connection side will change.

I can't see BT really changing DLM at this point. It's a shame, because it is really frustrating and a support headache. Tiscali give us an API - We could almost let customers choose their own synch configuration via our portal. BT haven't got the same tools, and to be honest I expect it more likely that the next big change will come in ADSL2+. It may be 3 or 4 years before everyone will access that, although for some on the big exchanges it will happen sooner (Read, those on exchanges which already have LLU*).

Ian

* I've always thought it bizarre how Ofcom went about breaking the the BT monoply and pushing the roll-out of LLU, with multiple networks serving the same profitable exchanges. To me it's been like telling each train company they need to build their own tracks for their trains to run on.


Regards,

Ian Wild
PlusNet Support
cogilvie

Posts: 798


« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2007, 10:41:58 pm »

The BRAS thing IS annoying. My speed dropped to 3000 the other day there, from it's 7000, and is now up to 4000 despite syncing at 8096 Sad I should really set up synch speed monitoring as well as my SNR stuff :/

Colin Ogilvie
Application Developer
Plusnet
ianwild

Posts: 3979


Not to be confused with Mike, Wildmind.

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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2007, 10:45:05 pm »

Another advantage is lead time to get more capacity. If I understand correctly it is about 5 days instead of the 10 weeks+ that standard Centrals take.

In our implementation, this becomes a non issue in fact. We end up sitting on a platform alongside much more existing scale. We do pay about the same per kbps for traffic transfer, but the wholesale scaling issues do dissapear for us using RIN.

It's worth mentioning that we looked at this move well over a year ago, but at the time had to rule it out due to the high intial capex that would have been needed. Now we are in a position to do this, we are at an advatage too as we had already written much of the migration plan. That's why we are able to move so quickly on getting the trial done, and provided it goes well there is much potential here.

Ian

Regards,

Ian Wild
PlusNet Support
scarymonkey

Posts: 1085

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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2007, 10:47:29 pm »

Wouldn't it still be an issue but on a much larger scale? When that capacity gets close to limits it is possible to increase it quickly. Just that it might not be a PN choice to increase the capacity.

Vince Marsters
kitz

Posts: 4323

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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2007, 10:58:58 pm »

I've just suffered again from my #1 pet hate of MaxDSL - the stupid "BT profile" has decided I'm only allowed 2Mbps because of a momentary sync glitch despite it having been happy for weeks at 5Mbps... Another 3 day wait for it to wake it's ideas up! angry

Will this new trial system suffer from the same issues? Or is that not related to the part that is changing?


Sympathise with you on that - 7 months solid sync at 8128 - one power surge and a blown fuse... one massive drop in sync speed.. and even though I was syncing again at 8128 within an hour or so I was reprofiled. Sad

The DLM which is where your profiling is done is at the exchange level and wont be affected or changed whilst on RIN Im afraid.  You would really think that BT could perhaps come up with something a bit more dynamic than the 3 day thing which is a PITA for many users...  and it is something that LLU does have the edge over with max.

In some ways I can see why theyve done it - particulary when I found out last week that some exchanges still only have 8-10Mb on the VP backhaul. rolleyes

Dont forget the Geeks!
™ kitz 2005
ianwild

Posts: 3979


Not to be confused with Mike, Wildmind.

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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2007, 11:12:12 pm »

Wouldn't it still be an issue but on a much larger scale? When that capacity gets close to limits it is possible to increase it quickly. Just that it might not be a PN choice to increase the capacity.

Maybe it's just semantics... Issue probably not, but I'm sure it's a consideration all of the time. Such big changes are afoot with WBC on the way though, that in reality this is all going to be moot going forwards.

I'm not saying ISPs won't still have big challenges, even with the new infrastructure, it's just that this specifically isn't one of them!

Ian

Regards,

Ian Wild
PlusNet Support
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